The rising ambitions of climate progress and the complexities of implementation
Sunday, September 14, 2022
Last week, I had the opportunity to attend a briefing – a “conversation” as it was billed with – with Gina McCarthy, The White House National Climate Advisor and Ali Zaidi, Deputy National Climate Advisor hosted by the Aspen Institute (https://www.aspeninstitute.org/).
Gina has a New England accent as thick as clam chowder. She’s funny and self-effacing in a way that says “pay attention to me”. She has decades of experience and all the personality and people skills to survive at a high level in a town that grinds up people’s reputations for fun. Ali assuredly punched out facts and details programs and executive orders like a human climate policy wiki, and he exhibited progressive zeal and enthusiasm and charge of a thoroughbred rounding for the home stretch. These are talented true believers.
The details of the discussion were interesting and at times almost hard to follow. Ali gave an overview of just some of the climate provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act (In fact, I think he called it the build back better plan a couple of times. Can he do that? I thought that was dead? 😊) and dove tailed this with more details about over 200 executive actions, policy and regulatory changes and other actions being taken by the Biden Administration to address climate change. It was all displayed in horrible slideware like this…
You got all that, right? One thing that is worth noting and Ali made mention of this, is that there are a lot of Billions on that slide. The Inflation Reduction Act has changed the frame. In many past initiatives even the Federal Government talked in programs with budgets in the millions not billions. Well how about Trillions. Trillions is what we spend on national defense. Trillions is what we spend on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and related programs. If climate change mitigation, the decarbonization of our economy, and our path to sustainability are the challenge of our time, then it seems appropriate to think in terms of Trillions. Certainly, on a global scale that is what we must get to fast. The money doesn’t all flow through the government either. As recently reported, in many cases, like with semiconductor and battery supply the goal of the government funds is to catalyze private sector investment that may be 3 to 10 times greater than the federal grants, subsidies, tax breaks or other types of government funding. And this is just the Federal level. There’s investment even in my little county. Complexity is good.
Fun ribbing aside there were three observations I was stuck with.
Data when analyzed well can shine a light and motivate us to action.
Complexity is Good – To often we think in reductionist polarizing terms. We want one winner take all solution to the challenge. The world doesn’t work this way. The solutions and the process we use to define them is SUPER complicated. I’ve talked about this a lot, but I’m going to try and inventory all the actions the Administration has taken at a high level in a future post.
Implementation will be really hard - The Administration seems to know this and is working hard to address it. I’ll address this in my next blog post.
So let’s deal with number 1.
One of the things teased out at the event was a new Climate Mapping for Resilience and Adaptation Portal.
It turns out this is a really cool tool (https://resilience.climate.gov/#real-time-data) that aggregates all kinds of data that folks in the environmental monitoring tech sector work to collect and plots it against land surface and demographic information to assess resilience and risk. The tool can help communities and business understand current future risks, especially related to extreme heat, drought, wildfires, flooding and coastal inundation (sea level rise). It further directs them to funding and other resources for assistance. This is a clear example of the real implications of our changing climate.
Wildfires Current and Future Risks
I was amazed by the scope of the threats and impressed by the fusion of data and information in an easy to use form. It’s not the end all solution, but it’s a great resource for many just trying to get their hands around the challenges we face. It’s a great example of how the environmental monitoring tech field can be part of the solution, building awareness of the risks and helping provide analysis to find the best mitigation strategies.
For anyone interested, below is a machine transcript of the interview of Gina and Ali at the event. It’s a machine transcript only and was not correct or fact checked. So reader be advised.
Justin WorlandThey're the by the numbers and ask you a really high level question. Thinking about the numbers of inflation Reduction Act, you know, all the modeling sort of suggests around a 40% reduction from 2005 levels by 2030. With the inflation Reduction Act, and, you know, also acknowledging that that's can account for everything. And I'm curious, do you think the inflation Reduction Act is going to do more will it have these catalytic effects that will do more and to what degree and how and why?Gina McCarthyJustin First, thanks for hanging out with me. Again. It's fun. It's actually it was more fun in Aspen but I think let me just start by saying Is there anyone know why Ali Zaidi is going to be the National Climate advisor, and I learned so much from him and I just wish I had half or a quarter of his memory. But it's great and I just want to start by thanking the whole team. You know, the climate policy office has been an outstanding addition in the White House and one that really reflects the President's, you know, some commitment to climate crisis. I've never seen him waver on any decision that he's made on this and I just couldn't be more proud of the work that his team has been able to do but also more hopeful about having Olli at the helm, so I just can't thank him enough. Except he shows me up which is really annoying. But having said that, you know, Justin, you're asking the right question, I think because, you know, there's different ways of thinking about how to address the climate crisis. But I think the President's framing of how he was looking at it was to ensure that it had an catalytic change, that it was the start of, of ways in which people could start talking about climate change and looking at climate change through an entirely different lens. You know, I worked for President Obama, he was terrific, but we did not at that point in time, have the technologies or have the wherewithal to actually make the kind of change that we want it to the technologies was simply not available to us. But that's different now. You know, so this the the the in the inflation reduction act in a bipartisan infrastructure law is is catalytic, because we have the kind of technologies and the kind of products and the kinds of processes that make people feel better about where they are in the future. We are not standing up on a podium talking about the woe is me on climate. We're just simply saying climates here. You're looking at the numbers, you're looking at the engagement of states now. You know, every state put in a plan for evey charging every state Yes, Texas. Yes, Oklahoma. You know, they did knock you with it. It's like, damn, I have to be in this because it captured the whole fullness of the future. It just was an opportunity framing that refuse to leave anybody behind. So when I look at this, this is the most historic and biggest leap forward ever. You know, it's a giga ton of reductions at Giga ton here. And that for those who are mathematically challenged, that's a billion metric tons, which includes me by the way, I have to memorize that every time I want to speak about it. But but it's it's it, it it is really, an entirely different framing, that talks about real people, real experiences, what they're dealing with. Now, unfortunately, there are very few deniers anymore because you can't you know, that's what David's standing up talking about is that's what that Portal was showing is the impact that we're going to face and how we have to address that now if you want to do it. But to me, the most important thing was and this is, I think, something that that President Biden and I have in common we both came from, you know, few needs. And we had to make someGina McCarthywe had to make the investments about how every human being would say, this is a better future for me, and a better tomorrow. And that's why it's candlelit. That's why you see the private sector stepping up, realizing that they have a president AIPAC and they have a president who's figured out how to make a future that can make them money, only they have to do it differently than what they did in the past. And they're jumping on it. So that's what makes me realize is that you know, when when I was doing the, it seems so long ago, the CPP my little effort to move forward on power plants. And getting them clean. I realized that we had created a dynamic where I didn't say that things are going to change tomorrow. I said we're gonna get changes over the next three to 10 years, and we set that out as aggressively as we could and before it even got implemented. The Supreme Court basically put it on a hiatus that ended up being permanent. But what happened during that period of time is within three years we exceeded what we hope to do in 10 because it was a signal center. So what Ali's talking about when he's talking about both, you know, the brilliance of Congress, moving forward with these bills, coupled with executive action, no one is going to sit around, waiting for people to notice that life has changed. We're gonna keep pushing this, this White House is not going to sit and say, Okay, we got the job done. Climate doesn't work that way. But the energy that we're seeing from people across the country, the fact that states are engaging this fact that the private sector is talking in ways that we never anticipated. It's a really fun time and what we really need to do, I hope, I know that Aspen will be focusing on this is to get every country to to change to that opportunity frame. Because this is a game that any one country can win. But one country like the United States can show what leadership means. It can show why this is something that the people choose. And we have a coalition that we pulled together like no other. That actually made that voice reallyJustin Worlandgreat. That's a lot of threads to pull there. I want to just ask you, so you mentioned private sector states. And you also alluded to that, you know, this White House has more to do and I'm curious to hear what do you think, are the biggest priorities in terms of executive and administrative action both to ensure that inflation Reduction Act is implemented to the best that it can be, but also other things that might bend that emissions curve?Gina McCarthyWell, Justin, one of the things I think we've been hearing loudly from is the environmental justice community, and I want to bring that up, because it's worth bringing up and it's necessary to sort of hear what they have to say and to think about why, you know, they're raising concerns. And so I think one of the things I just want to point out is that one of the it's sort of crystallizing, I think, in terms of what the climate policy office and the broader White House is thinking about, and it is this whole of government approach, but it is really important. I think, as a next step, that we make sure that we're marrying these investments with clear standards, because that's what worries the environmental justice community, they know between the bipartisan infrastructure on the inflation reduction AG, there's 120 billion and I keep telling everybody I have such a grown in to being able to stop seeing millions and to save billions. It was a hard journey for me. No one's ever offered me a billion dollars. In OLED, EPA, their entire their entire budget was a little over 8 billion. Seriously, what we need did I have you know, now now we got it. But but the whole the whole thing is that is that we have to do both because they're raising legitimate concerns about ways in which we're going to have to move forward that demands that we focus attention on when we raise up and we win and we do better. The whole government structure must move up to that as something everybody aspires to and has a standard. And so I think you're going to see a lot more executive authority being utilized. Now, that's not to not to create big burdens. It's simply to level the playing field and to keep the private sector as well as the public sector and states and communities. Thinking about using those investments in order to get everybody moving forward and to protect the communities that have been disinvested in for so long. You know Ali's point about about the ways in which we're structuring the requirements to actually provide incredible inducements for projects and environmental justice communities and investments. And it's it's just, it's really, I think, not just groundbreaking in terms of the size of the investment, it's how it's being spent. And I think, again, I'm really excited that John Podesta is coming into the White House, because we got Mitch Landrieu really moving forward in a bipartisan infrastructure. Now we have John Podesta ready to kick butt which he always does, mind included at times to actually move forward on vacation because it's we have to move quickly. People have to see the change. That we promised. President Biden has been promising this change since early on in the campaign. And please don't ever come out because he's furious. He just will not stop when he promises he delivers. And I think that's what this is all about.Justin WorlandI mean, I want to I want to ask a bit about or just a follow up on the bit about executive action outside of the inflation Reduction Act. First, just asking and I think there's a sense among, among some that, you know, the administration was waiting for the inflation Reduction Act or for legislation before really pushing a lot of the key regulations you know, is that, is that true? And then I guess I'm curious, should we expect, you know, a flurry of things, you know, coming coming months. And, you know, what might some of these things be that we should be thinking about,Gina McCarthyactually, that I don't think it's correct that we were, we were slow in moving forward, I think what's correct is we have a lot of corrections. Don't forget before you can move forward together, undo what was done. That was not. And then you've got to figure out, you know, how you move forward and get things moving. So we've been moving all along, you know, and I don't want to suggest that we're thinking of really new ideas about standards. We're thinking about making sure that we're looking at science and creating standards that are appropriate. So you will see some things coming up. I think Ali highlighted the fact that methane is going to be something we're focused on. So that was, you know, that's a great case in point where you do you do enough to catch up but then you have to relook. So a lot of what we're doing is just catching up for time lost, which you can do quickly, but then thinking about what are the technologies available to us, so that methane can really be detected those leaks and correct it. And in with the inflation Reduction Act in the in the bipartisan infrastructure law, there are real opportunities now to look at how you develop standards that aren't based on how do we keep the costs low, which is how all of our roles have always been done, what's the cheapest way that we can get away with and still make it be okay, in the cost effectiveness standpoint? This is all about saving money. This is a different scenario. So you can really get very creative about the standards that are being set but so I don't think you're what you see coming up is going to be a flurry. But what you see is going coming up is going to be the standard setting process at EPA. It's going to be working with with DOI on many of those things that David Hayes knows way better than anybody else. You're going to you know, look at all the tax work that needs to be done now. These are things that that will take time. But I think the world knows where we're headingJustin Worlandwell, well first, I just want to say in 10 minutes, we're going to go to audience questions, so please be thinking about them. Like I'm feeling this audience won't be shy, but please think of questions. But I want to pick up on the point about environmental justice. And just to ask, I mean, you made the point. Very fair point. That's a lot of money between these two pieces of legislation. And yet there was still you know, sort of a upgrade from from any in the environment justice, work on vital justice issues over the inflation Reduction Act. I guess I'm just curious if there's ways in which you would think that you might, well, you're leaving but you might engage the administration might engage these communities to you know, help shape future initiatives but also to, you know, communicate about these things in a way that it doesn't result in that kind ofGina McCarthypain. Yeah. Well, we we did engage, I think pretty effectively with the environmental justice community. And, you know, one of the one of the great things about working in government, which is why I like it, because I always like challenges. Is that one no matter what you do is gonna fall short, right? You're never like answers. I figured it out. This is it. I'll put out a video go oh, this is great. And it's just a constant push to do more and rightly so that's how our government works. And I love it in the environmental justice community was heavily involved in discussions around both of these pieces of legislation, and frankly, around the 200 executive. Orders that we did in those discussions. Just want to continue. You know, I was at a meeting yesterday, which was really fun. I don't I don't always say that. When I go to meetings. But I was with Secretary Granholm at the Department of Energy we did a roundtable on decarbonisation of the industrial civilization. And I'm looking at the cast of characters sitting around and thinking, you know, we've never agreed on anything. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, Oh, you're from I know you kind of thing only if Beverly Wright was there who is a wonderful environmental justice advocate from Louisiana. And she started her five minutes discussion. And she said, she said, this is just an amazing place to be. She said this is the first time that I feel like we have an opportunity to collaborate on a shared value and a shared interest. And sheet said what I'm thinking which is what life has changed, you know, in the the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I think everybody's trying to get their head around an entirely different paradigm than we used to. You know, we have shared interests and and the industry itself, you know, stood up and say we can do this we've got to do more of that we've got to invest in this you know, we have to get to zero at some point in time. We have to be competitive. You know, they talked about you know, electric arc furnaces steel and and talking about what they're doing and cement you know, these are industries that never had this type of thought. So the world has changed in the environmental justice community is feeling that change, but they're doing exactly what they ought to do. They're making sure that they're not going to be left behind and so investment isn't enough. You know, I think we have it. We have great investments in environmental justice communities with block grants and the new accelerator, things can change there, but as they know better than anybody that can shift in a moment's time, so they're going to and rightly so coming in to hold our feet to the fire, about what else are we going to do to make sure that the disinvestments don't continue. That not just the investments of it, but a recognition that some of the technologies that we'll be investing in? Don't definitely we're require other traditional conventional pollutants to come with. That means we have to do standards as well as as technology investments. So it's, it's really quite a remarkable thing that that roundtable was like I was sitting there thinking, I died and went to a different planet. And I liked it better actually. It was just so different.Justin WorlandWell, I want to just before we go to audience questions, give you an opportunity to reflect on your legacy than the administration or something and across administration's I think it's always interesting to hear you talk about how different you know, working on CPP was back then and versus the work that you're doing now, but yeah, just give you an opportunity to reflect and you know, perhaps if you want to talk a bit about how this landmark inflation reduction act plays into that legacy, as well.Gina McCarthyWell, I think that now's a good time for me to leave the White House, don't you? I mean, really, I just know that with every phone call. I'm like, go ahead. something's gonna go wrong. Yeah, honestly. I have been working in this area for like four decades now. I admitted to my husband who's been telling me that I have to come back home. That that for the past 17 years, I've basically lived, where I worked and visited. And I figured that's not a winning strategy. And so once I admitted that I'm like, Oh, God, I gotta, I gotta go home, which is what I'm doing and I look forward to it. But you know, the, the. I started at the local level in the town of Canton as the first full time health agent, and it was the best experience of my life. Not the worst in the best. Because it so made me realize that that government is all about responding to people, and how they see the challenge before them and how you can reframe that challenge and make a difference in it. And it's in it's so I think the reason why President Biden and I get along so well, it which we do is that it everything's people people and so I've used that framing always I speak as clearly as humanly possible. I'm not sure I can speak any differently than that. But it works. For me, you know, I don't, I don't run away from mistakes. You know, I don't tell people they shouldn't be worried about something that's worrying them. You know, you've got to make government work for people and and that's the that's all I focused on for for 40 years. And I expect I'll keep yapping about that moving forward, but I think that sometimes what government forgets, and I think that it's the old debts, the enticement that President Biden sort of made me think about that drove me to the White House when he's driving me out of the White House is I'm totally exhausted and leaving because it is a it's an amazing place. It's the smartest people I've ever seen, who always had their phones at the ready, who never take a day off. And soJustin Worlandokay, what I thought I think we're gonna bring Ali back and then take some questions. So if people have questions, I think we'll have mics and you just want to raise your hand and we'll go in the red orUnknownthe morning, everyone. So right now I'm delighted to see that there are historic and investments in environmental justice. I can think back to a couple years ago when I was at Howard, fundraising water to ship out a plant with the crisis that was going on. Now we see what's going on in Jackson, Mississippi, and then the toxic arsenic levels right now in New York City. So my question is, how can we use forecasting as a means to anticipate climate crisis so you know, what investments in infrastructure can we make so that we're not reactive and that we can be proactive instead?Justin WorlandWait Well, it's almost a question for you, but I don't know if I'll lead you on.Gina McCarthyWell, I came from the I came from the year of inflammation as power I still believe that I still believe that. So I think I think all they can speak to this in much more detail, but you gotta give people information to make judgments on in information to make demands. You know, they have just every community has a right to, to look at facts and science. And I think what the portal is all about is making these challenges very clear. You know, if you look at the one in Miami, in Florida, you'll see why insurance companies are running these challenges here, but but we have to factor those in with every project that is put out. We have to understand what the implication is that we cannot build bridges that will not be available for people to use, and 15 years from now or 20 years. And literally the work that David pulled together with Olli and others in at frankly, across the government is is going to try to make sure that that things are constructed in ways that have longevity, but also that we consider the challenges that are going to come with climate happening. And so that's the whole ball of wax I think is to keep engaging people or not, not giving them information to frighten them, butAli Zaidibolts at the last national talk, a great deal about a working group that David also called climate smart infrastructure, which is designed to figure out how we bundle up that information get to the folks we're planning and infrastructure. Genius point we, you know, but there's a lot of dating out decisions that have been made over the last several 100 years and you know, I think about transportation policy has been an instrument of segregation. And we now have funds in the infrastructure law and the inflation Reduction Act that are designed to do bear that we had a racist housing policy in the United States. We now have communities that the pavement with fewer trees that are literally hotter because of climate change. We have a billion and a half dollars that we have deployed from inflation Reduction Act to help address impacts of that policy. So thing one is understanding being clear eyed to Julian's point, being clear eyed about the challenges that we face, speaking clearly about the challenges that we face, knowing there's more work to be done, and knowing that a lot of it is trying to undo and come out of this story of neglect and disinvestment. I think the second is, is the sort of nuts and bolts of getting the data out. And then I think the third and maybe Justin this goes to something you guys were talking about. You know, a lot of people have been part of the movement that brought us we passed the inflation Reduction Act, because they strike as they organized. And I think a lot of folks were wondering, okay, well, I succeeded. What's next? What do I campaign for next? And I think one of the best friends above excellent implementation will be a push for greater and greater ambition. We got to be relentless in looking to push the envelope. And I think if we keep pushing the envelope and demanding more, that's going to force the bureaucrats to do as good of a job on implementation as possible because we're going to try to squeeze every last bit of impact out of implementation. I think we couldn't have a better leader on Ira than having John in that role. Help us extract all the upside.Justin WorlandEight answer, okay. It's all one font. We have a lot of questions now, which is great. So I think I'm going to do two at a time. Oh, you already gave them. Okay, that's fine. Hey, it'sUnknownNick Pearson with Google. Thanks to Aspen for hosting us. This morning. Ali, you mentioned the wonder the electricity sector that's public power. We talk with something about the ministrations thoughts on how to deal with entities like Tennessee Valley Authority and others on implementing you all's objectives in the sector on the worldspace.Ali ZaidiJust I mean, very basic right. TVA can monetize tax policy today in a way that it couldn't afford. And we're going to need entities like that to step up to go fast and to act in the best interest of their customers, which is to deliver clean electricity and to generate it in a clean way. And I think we've got the tools to do that.Gina McCarthyAnd I also just added this is, again, sort of, I always think about how to talk to people about you know, TVA in our coops have to start talking about electricity prices, and what they will be depending upon how money is invested. You know, people need to know that they're going to save money with clean energy. The world coops are the highest or the highest cost of electricity for the poorest communities in the United States. You know, we can do we can talk about this as as in a way that people recognize that change has to happen, and it's going to benefit them tomorrow. But But TVA and others have to look at this strategy and translate it not just into what they like to do, but what's necessary to do for the communities in the space. And if we can explain to them how it's going to save their consumers money and make that case then it's going to be a very interesting dynamic decision making. So I just think everything needs to be translated into who's benefitingAli ZaidiI'm sure that you know as the IBEW expands its apprenticeship programs. That's training workers that are front of the line when it comes to things like installing Evie charging. So I think thing one is going to be working with the building trades, working with organizations that are gonna have an exceptional capacity to reach into these communities. Then two is going to be to make sure that we're recruiting a workforce that is diverse and looks like America. You know, it this is no knock on anybody, although maybe it is. But if you step into boardrooms, or or to, you know, your favorite color here, favorite electricity, or whatever conference. It's not usually the most diverse place in America. It's not a good cross section and I think we're gonna have to be very deliberate and purposeful about partnerships that help us draw that out. And I think the investments and things like the clean energy accelerator, the investments in the EJ block brands that can help us recruit from from those communities. You know, I think the third part of this is, it's it's very easy to sort of do the planning exercise for 2030. But we got to do the planning exercise for 2022 That's why you know, Gina and Brian DS, National Economic Council, Jen Granholm at the Department of Energy, co head this energy communities powerplants working group, I think one of the sort of far out successes of this administration and that's been to meet with folks like the mine workers and think about how we get them doing the things that they already have the skill set to do. And put them to work doing that, like reclaiming, reclaiming abandoned mine sites. That's really, really important. And I think that's been part of part of our strategy.Gina McCarthyI really don't. I the only thing I wanted to add was, you know, in early conversations with the UAW, I think it's a good reflection of what I was just saying is that we were meeting with Ray curry, who was at that time, the president of unit you know, the concern of Tim, for the shift to electric vehicles, was that it might have a job loss, because you don't need as they're easy to construct. Let's just put it and and what, what we had to talk to Ray about which, which was what broke the logjam in these discussions? Was that yes, it may be you know, fewer jobs at a specific plant, but you'll have more jobs overall, because we'll get investments we can build them in the United States. And in you know, in we explain that we thought that we would be driving in private sector money to actually do this. In the minute that conversation started going bigger, and they started talking to GM, which was not my most favorite progressive car company. If we can all recall back that far. And four, it just became very clear that they were ready to invest. I mean, in what we've seen in terms of those investments, about investing in new manufacturing facilities, investing in batteries, now we have the chips act that's moving forward to plug some of the challenges that we're having on this chain, and get that done. It's just to me, you know, I just wanted to point it out as something that that requires us to be thinking through these issues all the way through supply chain. So that way, we are convincing people to move in a direction that we can deliver. And when we when we find a problem or barriers, you just go after it. And so all of that, you know, I already mentioned Brian nice from NEC, it's just amazing how collaborative you know, these approaches are in this administration, and where they lead.Justin WorlandSo I think we have time for one more question. Unfortunately. I'm sorry if I nodded. And we're not rushing but I know we have Richard okay. Yeah. Perfect.UnknownRichard though resources for the future. So Jr already spoke a bit to additional executive actions. First of all, thank you both. For your incredible tenacity. No, restless successful, though. So I'm going to ask you a slate of acronyms. And so there's been huge accomplishments but are there important additional legislative actions that need to be taken on climate and that you can envision being taken in a bipartisan fashion which may people may be?Ali ZaidiWell, I think, you know, number one is the President has been very clear everything. He campaigned on. He campaigned on. He thinks it's a good idea to continue to push for it so you can expect him to keep pushing for the things he thinks are good ideas. You know, some of the places where I think we were surprised at how quickly the technology and investment landscape were changing. One example of that was the industrial sector. I remember the conversations some of us were having during the transition. And folks, we're talking about, you know, buying clean procurement and stuff like that, but as like a, you know, Nish let's test it out. Let's try it out. Kind of thing that we've got us steel with a net zero. You know, we've got the steel workers. Talking to us working with us on how we accelerate progress. We've got a deal and the President's brokered with the EU on the first ever carbon arrangement on steel and aluminum to lift up the value of cleaner products. So I think that's a place where there should be a lot of bipartisan appetite, to chase after this big prize that we didn't really even know we could be chasing after. And what I think is profound here is the US has a very tremendous structural advantage in chasing after the clean construction materials, space globally. Right. Our products on a per ton of, for example, steel bases are way less carbon intensity, then products being made in places like China. And so this is a place where we can go from strength to strength, and if you care about the industrial backbone of the United States and you care about our position globally, you should be leaning into that. I think a second place and I think Senator Stabenow has been just such now and Tom Vilsack. Really, I didn't really know how to do this is in this space of using nature. In the fight against climate change, enlisting the support and voluntary action of farmers and ranchers and landowners in boosting our resilience and boosting our ability to store carbon. We've made tremendous progress on that, even in the 2018. We've made huge progress on top of that inflation production, and I think sky's the limit. So I think there's a ton of work to do. The President's been clear everything. He hasn't gotten done. He's gonna keep me informed. By the way he's kept every step of the way. So I never bet against Joe Biden. But I think there's just tremendous 20 and 50 states signing up with plans for eachJustin Worlandone. Okay, well, that is a good note to end on. Thank you. To both of you for the time to this conversation. And the Aspen Institute for hosting it.